My thoughts on Appropriationgate*

[major_clanger]

*Since all major LJ kerfuffles acquire a hackneyed name, let's at least assign it now.

As I mentioned I'm very busy, too busy to wade into this debate (if it can even be dignified by that term now) and too put off by a prior foray into it and the treatment of many of my friends to want to do so in any depth. But I will offer up one thought it has given me:

"One way in which a liberal may be disillusioned or driven to conservatism is criticism that his or her view is not liberal enough from people more concerned with enhancing their liberal credentials than meaningfully discussing the issue at hand."

Discuss.

Comments

[mevennen.livejournal.com]

There's also nothing like the Left for arguing amongst its component paths. If I was a Tory, I'd just sit back and let various shades of Marxist tear one another apart.

[maviscruet.livejournal.com]

I have no idea what your talking about.....

I mean sure the left does have a tendency to tear it self apart - but the right does as well actually. "not the right sort of christian" being a classic example.

[andrewducker]

Or "So, the EU then?"

[mevennen.livejournal.com]

British Conservatives tend to be held together by self-interest, and although there are arguments and occasional knifings in the back (one M Thatcher springs to mind), I think there is a case to be made that they are more cohesive than the Left, because less bound by actual ideology and its interpretations.

Although nominally mostly Christian, this is a very secular nation. Thank God.

[major-clanger.livejournal.com]

I'm almost inclined to say "if you don't know, consider yourself lucky!"

Short version: sf writer Elizabeth Bear (lj user="matociquala"> posted about the issues arising from writing about characters from different cultures, religions or ethnic groups. Now I've met her and she's what I think its safe to say is a very liberal and self-aware person. But the spectacular shitstorm this set off has plumbed new depths of bile and stupidity, much of it seeming to be of the form of "actually, I'm much more politically correct than you are, so your argument is therefore wrong." But much nastier.

Your point is a good one though. It's a problem with people who assert their position out of dogma and thus see their credibility amongst their peers in terms of how dogmatic they can put themselves across as being.

[autopope.livejournal.com]

"Splittist!"

The sheer venom and petty-mindedness visible from early on in Appropriationgate will have convinced any number of open-minded onlookers that the whole question of Othering is best avoided with the proverbial bargepole. And that anti-racists are racists too, just in the opposite direction. And that because white males are by definition Wrong, there's no point (if you happen to have been born with that handicap) in trying to change. Oh, did I say "handicap"? That's discriminatory and hurtful language too.

Let me just add that I attach no blame whatsoever to matociquala for accidentally stomping on the loose powdery snow at the top of the avalanche-prone slope. If not her, then somebody else ...

[mevennen.livejournal.com]

My late partner's uncle did 2 years in Barlinnie for throwing two sailors through a window (as one does). He almost certainly *did* have learning difficulties. However, it is difficult to think for example, of the likes of Trainspotting's Begbie as anything other than a psycho.

[annafdd.livejournal.com]

I don't agree, which why I am so particularly depressed at this whole thing. I think it's a vital necessity to have these debates, especially if you are a white male. Or a white rich female as is my case (well, I'm no longer rich, but privilege sticks).

I would be ok if the damage was limited to "I will no longer join in these discussions".

The fact that the damage was "those crazy anti-racist aren't worth listening to" deeply, deeply depressed me. I have no word to say how much.

(That, and the fact that since SF IS a prevalently white field, the people who have shone for sputtering anger in this debate WILL have hurt their chances of furthering the diversity of the field, not because editors and such are racist, but because they will be pissed off at them *personally*. With, at this point, some justice, I have to say. But even if they had been completely justified in their anger, there is still a little bit less diversity in this field today than yesterday.)

[autopope.livejournal.com]

As I just felt the need to note elsewhere:

The real enemy is intolerance and hatred. But remember, being excessively zealous in denouncing them is also a source of intolerance and hatred. Intolerance and hatred have many sources; racism and sexism are just two of them.

(Oh, and irony and sarcasm are probably weapons best left on the shelf in this endless struggle: too prone to cross-cultural confusion and/or misunderstanding.)

Note that I am not disagreeing with you. OK?

[annafdd.livejournal.com]

I know! I know!

[watervole.livejournal.com]

I appear to have missed this particular kerfuffle. I think I'm probably grateful that I don't know what it's about...

[major-clanger.livejournal.com]

See my comment to maviscruet above.

Put it this way: if you ever think of running a con programme item on 'Writing the Other', have very thick asbestos underwear on and a fire tender standing by.

[autopope.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure: I'd like to be in the audience for that panel with, say, Samuel Delaney, Roz Kaveney, Geoff Ryman, Nalo Hopkinson, and possibly Tobias Buckell (token looks-like-a-white-guy-but-isn't) on the panel. With super-soakers for use on the audience, if necessary. (Just remind me to leave all electronics behind ...)

[beamjockey.livejournal.com]

(Just remind me to leave all electronics behind ...)

Wouldn't that be similar to beholding Darth Vader with his helmet off? Pink, hollow-eyed, and terribly, terribly vulnerable?

[annafdd.livejournal.com]

Seriously, the person you need for this is Tempest. Despite her fearsome online presence, she is immensely articulate, very funny, and impossible to stay angry with for long. Besides, she can demonstrate her masturbatory Tarzan action figure. I was seriously thinking of approaching somebody to invite her to a UK con.

[papersky.livejournal.com]

When someone thinks they own an issue, it makes them a very bad person to have on a panel on that issue.

[annafdd.livejournal.com]

Maybe, yes. I did see Tempest on a couple of panels and she was the soul of moderation, but it's a vague hazy memory and it was a Wiscon and she's my friend. I was thinking of a British con, were, alas, the overwhelming majority of the audience would be white as pure snow. This frames the debate in certain terms. But you've got waaaaaay more experience than me about panels and how to avoid fisticuffs among the public during same.

But, apart from that, I remember one incident during Clarion in which Gabe and Tempest were discussing racism. Gabe is a smart boy, and very proud of his 1/4 Native American blood, but he is also... eh, a bit dogmatic (during a very similar discussion following The Last Samurai, he physically threw a volume by Hobsbawm at me. He missed though - I think on purpose.) Also white as milk. (He took Morgan as his surname after he married because his grandmother was Welsh and was called Morgan).

Anyway, at the peak of the discussion Gabe was yelling: "Just because you're black doesn't mean you can tell me what racism is!"

To which Tempest yelled back, hands on hips: "YES, Gabe, the fact that I am black is EXACTLY the reason I get to tell you what racism is!"

I thought she did have a point.

Gabe also had - despite being a goth - dreadlocks. He looked horrible in them. Tempest used to accuse him of cultural appropriation.

They didn't kill each other, though. I am reasonably convinced that if they met now they'd have lots of fun arguing with each other, after the ritual insults of course.

[purplecthulhu.livejournal.com]

You could propose this for literary/human culture track in Montreal...

[major-clanger.livejournal.com]

What, safe in the knowledge I'll be on the other side of the Atlantic?

Joking aside, I fear that the lesson from this whole mess is that it isn't possible to have a meaningful discussion of the issues involved. Too many people clearly feel that even the prospect of a discussion implies an unacceptable level of admission that other points of view exist.

[annafdd.livejournal.com]

I know this is the impression looking on, but it isn't actually true. I even suspect that if enough people made a concentrated effort to speak gently and politely and simpathetically to everybody involved, the exhausted survivors would be able to agree on a couple of points, like the grass being green and cats being nice.

[tanngrisnir.livejournal.com]

Anyone asked to moderate a panel like that would have grounds to suspect you really had it in for them.

[lil-shepherd.livejournal.com]

I've been keeping out of it very carefully, save one note of encouragement to Bear when she finally snapped and laid down the law to someone who kept insisting she take sides on the issue when she had stated the discussion closed.

I have to say, though, and this will perhaps upset Anna, that one of the nastiest posters is the one person who is banned from commenting at my journal... and is prone to call anyone who disagrees a racist a the best of times.

You may be also interested in the fact that the character of Bear's that sparked this all off is actually a Kelpie, who manifests in his horse form as a black stallion, and in his human form as a black man...

[annafdd.livejournal.com]

I'm not keeping scores who's been the nastiest, but can I ask if the person is question is in fact white?

[lil-shepherd.livejournal.com]

I have not, so far as I am aware, met this person in the flesh, but believe said person is a PoC.

[lil-shepherd.livejournal.com]

*applauds*

Then runs like hell.