major_clanger | When Convention Committees Go Nuclear

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When Convention Committees Go Nuclear

If you read

nwhyte's journal (and is there anyone left who doesn't?) you'll be aware from this post that Irish fan

slovobooks has been banned at short notice from attending Octocon this weekend, seemingly on the basis of unspecified conduct or comments relating to his criticism of the current committee.

Can they do this? More importantly, should they?

In various con-running panels and discussions I've pointed out that in legal terms a convention committee are in general terms entitled to refuse entry to a prospective member or, in certain circumstances, tell a member to leave. A member has a contract with a convention, and, following court rulings in other cases where people have been ejected from events they paid admission to, that contract is deemed to include implied terms about the attendee behaving in a reasonable manner for the event. If he or she doesn't, then the contract is terminated.

This is significant because in English law, you are by default a trespasser the moment you enter property owned by someone else. The reason you aren't thrown out of everywhere you go is that the law also recognises a range of express and implied permissions - called licences - to be on someone else's property. If I invite you round for dinner, in legal terms I'm granting you a temporary licence to be in my flat, which I can withdraw at will if, say, you pour your soup on one of my other guests. If you walk into a shop, you are exercising the implied licence that the shop has granted all lawful visitors. But that licence only extends to the public areas of the shop, and if you go through the 'Staff Only' door you are trespassing. And if you go to the cinema, then by selling you a ticket the management have granted you a 'contractual licence' to be present for the duration of the film. And this is where the point about contracts comes in, because the courts have held that if you violate the terms of such a contract - including implied terms about reasonable behaviour - then as well as the contract being terminated, so is the contractual licence to be on the premises that goes with it. In other words, you become a trespasser and so can be ejected.

When is it reasonable for 'The Management' to terminate a contract of admission? Well, when the attendee's behaviour is unreasonable. Of course, 'unreasonable' will be very variable; what is reasonable at a rugby match may not at a cake-decorating class. I would suggest that one definition is 'behaviour that seriously inconveniences the management or upsets other attendees' and certainly for sf conventions this is the guideline I'd follow. Indeed, I'm aware that some convention committees have avoided the ambiguity of implied terms by expressly including such a condition in their membership forms.

What about refusing someone membership? Well, nobody is forced to enter into a contract, so in principle a convention committee has absolute right to refuse to sell a membership. This is in practice tempered by anti-discrimination law so a committee cannot refuse admission on the basis that a prospective member is black, gay or disabled. (Although, to pre-empt one discussion, under the Disability Discrimination Act they can refuse admission to someone on the basis of a mental health problem that would lead to unreasonable disruption of the event.)

Now, having laid down the legal grounds for not admitting or ejecting a member of a convention, let's turn to practical issues: when should a convention committee do this? The answer, I say, is as rarely as possible. Fandom is a culture that is not only for the most part inclusionary, but one that likes to pride itself on being so. Exclusion is by definition antithetical to fandom's view of itself - yes, a view that is not always matched by reality, but one that most fans would consider one of fandom's most attractive aspects. It should be the proverbial nuclear option, rarely threatened and hardly ever followed through.

I've been involved in one incident where a fan was ejected (or rather would have been had the person in question not been removed on other grounds) and subsequently banned. It was an exceptionally severe and unpleasant occurrence that was genuinely traumatic for the committee in question and was definitely at the top of the scale of unreasonable behaviour. Moving down the scale a bit, at both the 1995 and 2005 Glasgow Worldcons I personally witnessed behaviour - in each case by a very arrogant self-proclaimed Big Name Fan - that was so abusive of convention staff that it bordered on being grounds for at least threatening ejection from the event. But I've also seen people have what, in the RAF, we used to term 'a funny five minutes'. Conventions are fun but also stressful, and a combination of little sleep, lots of booze (or coffee!) and the sheer giddy excitement of it all can put people in rather unusual head spaces. I think it's part of the whole con-running experience that sometimes you have to put up with this. If it blows over quickly and does not significantly disrupt the event as a whole, then it should probably be allowed to pass. Blowhards soon get a reputation in a culture as small and incestuous as fandom, and obnoxious jerks are likely to find that what goes around comes around.

And at times complaint is justified. I nearly lost my temper at a convention about a decade ago when

bugshaw was put in a difficult position; what angered me was not the problem (things go wrong or are missed) but what I saw as complete disinterest from the ops manager at dealing with it. As con-runners we are to some extent providing a service in exchange for money, and whilst I'll strongly argue that the volunteer and non-profit nature of events means that the level of service expected shouldn't be pushed too far, convention members should at least be treated with respect and a recognition that they are the people who have funded the event. To be blunt, if you as a con-runner don't pull your weight or ignore the legitimate expectations of the people who have given you the money that let your con go ahead, don't be surprised if they start to grumble about it.

If you want to run conventions, you need at least some degree of a thick skin. You can't please all of the people all of the time, and fandom has more than its fair share of nit-picking back-seat drivers, so you will take a degree of flack or at least grumbling no matter what you do. Some of it may well be emotional and ill-considered, and rather more public than you might like. At times, people at the event itself will be what the newspapers used to call 'tired and emotional' and again you'll be on the receiving end of this. 99% of the time the appropriate response is to ignore it, or at most be polite but firm in reminding someone that this is everyone's party that he or she risks spoiling. Actually ejecting someone should be the last resort, always preceded by a strong warning, in cases where the person in question really is (and will not stop) seriously disrupting the event - and this included monopolising the con committee's time and effort - or badly upsetting or abusing other members.

Now, all the above is in legal terms based on my professional knowledge of English law. But I believe that in many jurisdictions the legal position is broadly similar, and the moral and practical considerations ought to apply everywhere. In the Octocon case, it's hard to avoid the conclusion that the committee are being very thin-skinned and grossly over-reacting. As other people have pointed out, the best response to complaints that you are running a poor convention is to demonstrate that you can run a good one. And by the accounts of several of my friends who are regular Octocon attendees, it does sound as if there are at least some grounds for criticising the way it's been run over the last few years. Irrespective of the rights or wrongs of what

slovobooks has said or done, the Octocon committee's ill-judged and excessive reaction is only going to damage Octocon's reputation still further. And this is a point that all con-runners should remember: reputation is the currency of fandom, and it takes years to build but only seconds to lose.

EDIT I am very pleased to see that there has been an amicable resolution.

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> [...] reputation is the currency of fandom, and it takes years to build but only seconds to lose.

This. Very much so.

... and I hope (but do not expect) that the said loss of reputation will attach to the individuals on the committee, and not to the convention brand.

Unfortunately, the impression I get (whether rightly or wrongly) is that various of the current Concom have been doing the job a little too long; James' ranting on Cheryl's blog drags up a lot of stuff from the dim and distant past as to why

slovobooks is a Nasty Man and has therefore been banned, but is decidedly vague on the specifics; it feels as though the Concom are stuck in self-regarding groupthink and have seized upon

slovobooks's criticisms as something intolerable that must be purged.

Yes, con-running is frequently thankless, and the last thing you need sometimes is someone asking pointed questions in a scary voice, but the implicit message I'm getting in this case is "We are Octocon, and you are forbidden! We have spoken!".

And yes, that's got to stick to the brand; it's can't not.

I don't read either journal and am too lazy to go to Octocon and I don't know if I know the people involved but if the committee is so dreadful, why does this fan want to go to the convention?

There's a long back story. I'll tell you sometime if you're interested.

He was involved in running it for a long time; Octocon also fancies itself as the Irish National Convention (although it seems to be getting a lot of competition in that respect from P-Con these days). I get the feeling that Pádraig was disgruntled with the way Octocon has been run recently but was nonetheless planning to go along on the basis that it's a convention where he sees other Irish fans.

To be honest, the way Novacon was going the last few years I went mainly because it was a weekend fannish party, and put up with a hotel I didn't much like and a programme that seemed more insular every year. Having said that, I'm optimistic that the change of venue this year will revitalise it.

All I can say is that the Octocons have had this problem before. It blew over.

I would want to be very sure for any con that I ran that I was legally covered for banning anyone for any reason. But of course I would expect the community to judge my choices appropriately; reputation, not law, is the right court here.

I'm absolutely with you here. However, I've sometimes heard con-runners lament that they can't legally throw someone out of a convention who has paid to get in. As I hope I've explained, this isn't true - so long as they have been really unreasonable and you aren't being discriminatory, you're well within your rights to ask a disruptive member to leave. (And, I'll add, under no obligation to refund membership, although you might want to so as to emphasise that you are being reasonable.)

This thread is really interesting. I don't know any of the people involved but the committee don't appear to be covering themselves in glory with their bizarre insistence that

slovobooks should absolutely under no circumstances whatsoever contact them to discuss this while declaring it's outrageous that he didn't contact them to discuss this privately.

Yes, James Brophy does seem to be in some bizarre sort of denial.

Quite apart from all else, he makes a great point of insisting that he knows the REAL

slovobooks better than a lot of us, and that we're just ignorant of his dark side (a nice way to address your audience!).

If he knows him so well, then why didn't he forsee that

slovobooks would make the news public; and why didn't he see that this would cause a major fanstorm?

I mean, if you really believe that someone will play to the gallery at any opportunity, and you want to discredit their opinion, the very last thing you should give them is an opportunity like this one; it's a major tactical blunder.

One of the Octocon co-chairs has now basically disowned anything James Brophy has said. Which is all very well, but now leaves Padraig in the position that the Octocon committee won't tell him why he's been banned, and he can't assume that it's for any of the reasons that James says (though it may be).

I've called her on it. If you're going to ban someone, do them the courtesy of letting them know why.

As a committee member who has twice had to deal with the ejection of a people from conventions it is not a fun thing to do. I have had to do this once to a fan who's difficult mental health problem was leading to an unreasonable disruption to the convention. A full refund was given and an ambulance called to ensure we looked after their welfare.

The other time was when a dealer was being a complete pain in the ass. Upsetting other dealers and fans in the Dealers Room with their outbursts and unreasonable behavior. They were asked to leave when the Dealers Room closed on the first day.

But this behavior from the Octocon committee is just bizarre, why ban some one because of criticism. - They have just shot them selves in the foot and created a PR disaster by doing this.

In fairness, the Octocon committee hasn't banned him simply because he has criticized the convention - they have made some allegations about more serious behaviour. I make no comment about the soundness of those allegations.

Edited 2009-10-06 10:46 (UTC)

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This, I think, is one of the issues - the committee appear to have said "you have said and done stuff we're unhappy about, so less than a week before the convention we are banning you without right of appeal or even discussion." As I've said, they are almost certainly perfectly entitled to do this, but it seems an extreme reaction and is being done in a way that does not cast them in a good light.

Has

slovobooks said or done anything in the last few weeks that would cause such offence? If his conduct at Octocon is in question, has anything been said since the last one? This does rather smack of at best a panicked last-minute decision, and at worst a cynical attempt to act so late as to prevent any attempt to resolve the matter.

The last-minute nature of it is one of the things that seems so mindbogglingly ill-considered.

I mean, it is generally understood that the last few Octocons have been a little less than smoothly run. In such a case, you'd ideally want to run a really cracking con, just to demonstrate that you've still got the right stuff.

Generating a metric fucktonne of bad PR less than a week before the event is ... well, words only go so far at describing how bad an idea it is.

No matter who the GoH is, or how well-attended it is (or isn't), Octocon 2009 will be remembered for this little bustup; and fanzines like Ansible will probably spend more time on this hoohah than they will on the rest of the con.

Which is just about the Concom's worst nightmare - yet they brought this upon themselves - did nobody consider the consequences of their actions?

did nobody consider the consequences of their actions?

Dear God, my new career would be over before it started if people did that.

I think

slovobooks only decided the other day he was going to pop in. Not that it excuses it, but may explain why everything from their end was last minute.

That may be so, but if the committee really do view P as a persistent and vexatious trouble-maker, why didn't they let him know well in advance that he would not be welcome? In the one instance I'm aware of where someone was pre-emptively banned from a convention because of that person's behaviour at another event the decision was communicated well in advance.

My thoughts exactly.

If you've got someone who is a known fan and has been a regular attender of Octocon for years and who lives in the same city, it seems only sensible to assume that they will turn up and plan for this in advance.

To turn around a week before and go 'You're banned!' smacks of pisspoor organisation; which is one of the things that

slovobooks has called them to account on in the past.

Certainly, in the occasions where I've been involved in cons banning people, the banning was done immediately after the offence in question and it was made clear to the subject that they would not be welcome at future Cons (and the last one I can remember was ejected for manhandling the GoH and harrassing various other members and hotel staff!)

He had at the very least a supporting membership. In other words, the committee were happy to take his money as long as he didn't show up.

I should point out that I paid for a pair of supporting memberships at the post-Octocon Dead Dog on Monday in 2008, giving said money to Caitriona McGrath, the remaining co-chair of Octocon both this year and last. She had just the day before singled me out for especial thanks at the closing ceremony. While I was giving her the money, her boyfriend/partner, James Brophy, was sitting beside her, smiling.

I'm not saying they weren't incompetent, just that I think that's why this decision was so late.

Although the more I read about it the more of a mess it looks. Sheesh.

But he was already on the books, as far as I know. Which means that they knew there was a possibility. And I have big issues with an organisation that is willing to take your money but exclude you from the actual event when taking your money implies that you may show up there.

In fandom, it's quite hard to effectively deny the right of discussion; the most one can do is refuse to participate oneself. Thus leading to the banned person discussing the situation with the rest of the world. Which generally makes the convention look really stupid to any onlookers. Such as me.

This discussion confirms my opinion that rules of etiquette for on-line debate, and education of participants in same, are needed very badly.

Not just on-line debate; this is one of those places where the net is speeding up something that predates it by decades. Even offline, people tend to forget that if you send people letters, they may respond to those letters or show them to third parties. And, more broadly, that it is not in fact practical to send out mail saying "go to hell, and don't tell anyone I said so."

See RFC 1855 - it's as relevant now as it was 14 years ago.

eep! Here via

owlfish because I've been seeing links to this all over my flist...

Legal rights aside, it seems to me the most sensible thing to do would be to never ban someone unless their behaviour had been so public and outrageous and generally offensive that no one could really object -- and even then, it seems to me that it would always be more prudent to write those offenses into the 'reasons for possible ejection' and give everyone the benefit of the doubt until proved otherwise.

But that's just me.

The hard part is, what counts as "so public and outrageous and generally offensive that no one could really object," given that some number of fans will say "she's making a big fuss about nothing" when a writer objects to having her breasts groped on stage?

That said, I agree that if you aren't willing to say what someone did wrong, it's not a sound basis for banning from something like a con. That's partly because it will lead at least some people to suspect that it's either something trivial, or comes down to dislike or personal jealousy. And because there's no way to refute, or even cast doubt on, an unstated accusation.

I was thinking about that as I wrote it, and then thought of how Hollywood has jumped to defend Polanski ...

Well said all around. And IMO it does suggest that the organizers are unaware of the consequences of previous Fannish Exclusion Acts. Heck, I was born in 1965 and know about the Breendoggle (Google if you know not of what I speak), and earlier than that, the 1939 Worldcon Exclusion Act (http://www.fanac.org/worldcon/NYcon/w39-p00.html).

When I go-chaired the 2002 Worldcon, I wanted to throw one person out, but I was going to give him his money back. I was just so exasperated by what I considered his unreasonable complaints that I was ready to give him his money back and say, "I'm sorry, this is not a place you belong." He'd contended that since he'd "paid for his ticket," that we had a contractual obligation to make sure he could attend any possible program item he might want to attend, including capacity-controlled items like kaffeklatches and multiple simultaneous items. Actually, I'd really rather we not have anyone attending a Worldcon who thinks that s/he has "bought a ticket," but I guess I'm just an old fossil, because I see people on

worldfantasycon trying to "buy a ticket" because the 2009 WFC has reached its capacity and stopped selling memberships.

Edited 2009-10-07 02:05 (UTC)

I should point out that, as of yet - now nearly 48 hours after I got the original mail - I'm still no wiser as to the specifics of my banning. I realise that there have been some wild accusations flung about, but I have yet to receive any further communication fron Octocon on this, despite having asked. I imagine that they may be having a bit of a re-thing - or perhaps not, who knows? - but you would think that speed would be of the very essence in this matter, with only three days to go to the con.

Thanks a nice, clear right up of the legal situation.

I'm curious about one aspect.

The convention take place in a hotel so presumably the convention has a contract that allows its to sub-license visitors to the hotel.

There have been situations, either because of mental health or excessive alcohol, where a persons behaviour would justify the eviction of a person from an event.

Normally I would prefer a con to handle such a problem itself but occasionally, it has been clear that the con doesn't have the proper skills to deal with the situation.

What is the legal situation if the con goes to the hotel and asks that person X is causing trouble, could you expel them?

Or to put it another way, can the con make it someone else's problem?

Does the situation change if the person is a resident of the hotel?

Yes, when we ran a convention we explained to the hotel that we were putting on an event where non-residents would be being admitted to the function space. Hotels are perfectly used to this (many of the events they sell function space to are not resident-only) but as you say it does raise some issues. For instance, if someone has a hotel room, the convention might throw them out of the con itself but that person could still use his or her room, and the public areas of the hotel - which are likely to include the bar.

To deal with this we had a tacit agreement with the hotel that con and hotel would back each other up - if we asked someone to leave, the hotel would (within reason) do so too. Equally, if someone really upset the hotel, we would not make a point of insisting that they were allowed access (even as a non-resident) to the convention.

As for the scenario you describe, at the end of the day it's the hotel's premises and the hotel management are perfectly entitled to remove someone who is causing a serious nuisance. Indeed, they may be more ready to do so than a convention committee. Having said that, it's probably not a good idea to make it someone else's problem - it works better if hotel and convention cooperate on such things.

Of course this assumes that the hotel and convention are in agreement. I've always been lucky and every con I've run or been heavily involved in has had a good working relationship with the hotel. (After all, we are mild-mannered if a bit weird but drink like fish and tend to eat in the hotel restaurant; hotels by and large like this.) I have known problems at other cons, ranging from weekend or holiday staff unaware of special arrangements a con has made, to culture clashes that leave a hotel and committee trying to reconcile very different expectiations. (One Eastercon a few years back had a sudden problem when the hotel management got very upset at people walking around barefoot - officially for health and safety reasons, more likely because they had non-fan residents and were worried about their image. Not surprisingly, a lot of fans got very upset at the idea that anyone was going to tell them what to wear at a convention! But this leads into a whole other discussion...)

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When Convention Committees Go Nuclear

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